Both the media and Republicans, who love to make something out of nothing ( except when Republicans govern and then turn something into nothing) seem to want to make a big issue out of what Nancy Pelosi knew about water boarding and torture and when she knew it . In yesterday's press conference the big question was who told her what when. The problem is it doesn't matter..Pelosi was not making policy, Pelosi had no say in what Bush policy was going to be, and whether or not she was informed about water boarding in 2002 or whether or not she protested means absolutely nothing.
The only issues that matter regarding torture relates to the Bush White House and whether what they did was legal and did Bush Administration lawyers contrive a pseudo legal framework to justify torture. And if they did , the next question is, should they and other members of the Bush Administration who ordered the illegal torture be prosecuted.
Last night the breathless Lou Dobbs as well as other members of the press seemed to think that what Pelosi knew was somehow important.
It wouldn't matter if Pelosi lied through her teeth about everything she knew regarding torture. She didn't create the policy, didn't implement it and had no say or veto power over whether it was used or not. And as far as what we know so far, both Bob Graham, the former chairman of the Intelligence Committee and Jay Rockefeller who was also on the Intelligence Committee say they were never informed by the CIA though the CIA now claims both were briefed.
If nothing else this tends to corrorborate Pelosi's version of events.
After hearing Pelosi's admittedly stammering press conference, in the end she made it clear (even if Dobbs and other journalists couldnt grasp it through the stammering,) that she was NOT told by the CIA in any briefing that water boarding was being used. Whether or not this is true, I have no idea. But what the breathless Lou Dobbs didn't seem to grasp was that she was not admitting anything she hadn't said before even though she was clearly flustered in the way she was trying to say it. And now she is saying that the CIA misled her.
What the resolution of all this back and forth will be no one knows. But underneath all this chaos over torture, torture memos and reversal of policies regarding abuse photos is the Undecider himself, Barrack Obama who seems like he never had a thought he didn't want to change and whose constant reversals have been torturing the country over torture as I pointed out weeks ago.
Obama has reversed himself on so many decisions related to Bush era torture that its clear he has no moral position himself, no legal position himself, and maybe no clue himself as to what it all means, and we are seeing very clearly the admonitions we heard during the Democratic primaries that Obama was the least qualified of all the candidates to be President and its starting to show.
Given that the Republicans cant be trusted to do anything right, and Obama seems to have no idea about what is right regarding the whole issue of torture, its going to be left to Congress to have to straighten it all out.
For now Obama has a public mess on his hands of his own making mostly for not being consistent and not having any personal convictions regarding the entire issue of torture in the first place.
If the Republicans and the press want to make an issue of what Pelosi knew that's fine. Let the Congress and Pelosi use that as a good reason to have hearings and get to the bottom of everything. This is actually an opportunity for Pelosi and those Democrats who want hearings into Bush Administration torture to use Republican allegations against her to get them to support the idea of hearings. Which will not only get to the bottom of everything, it will take it out of Obama's hands which somebody needs to do.
The media never liked Pelosi and to get rid of Pelosi, she needs to lose support in San Francisco, and that's what this is all about. San Francisco voters are not going to look kindly if Pelosi knew about torture and looked the other way. As many who followed the 2008 Democratic primaries witnessed, Pelosi is manipulative and false. Her true self is being made apparent, even if for the wrong reason.
ReplyDeleteMark, you seem to be trying to give Pelosi a pass. She's clearly lying. One of the things I've admired about you is your ability to call a spade a spade. Right now, with this blog on Pelosi, I find myself totally disappointed with your thought process. Anonymous in the comment above gets it right. Wake up, Mark. The Dems tried to make an issue out of the torture and are now getting caught in their own tangled web.
ReplyDelete"Mark, you seem to be trying to give Pelosi a pass."
ReplyDeleteNot at all. Im just saying she doesnt matter and the Republicans are trying to use her to deflect attention from what matters -- investigating and prosecuting the Bush Administration for illegal torture. If Pelosi has to go down politically then she has to go down but she is only guilty of bad politics not criminality which is what needs to be dealt with the most. Gingrich calling for an investigation only of Pelosi is a joke.
There has to be investigations of Bush era torture and if it ends up being embarassing for some Democrats and undermines their credibility and they are forced to step down so be it.
Marc, I agree with everything you say, but Pelosi is playing the outrage game for her own political gain. The Republicans are masters at playing the phony outrage game and can easily win this one.
ReplyDelete“Not at all. I’m just saying she doesn’t matter and the Republicans are trying to use her to deflect attention from what matters………………”
ReplyDeleteWhile true enough, Marc, this also overlooks the fact that Pelosi and most Democrats at the time knew torture was taking place. I knew. And I was not briefed at all. I knew even though Bush and his entire administration was lying about it. It is just like I knew the Iraq War was a huge mistake and there were no WMD’s.
If it was just this one issue I might be inclined to cut Pelosi some slack. But for at least 10 years the Democrats have been brain dead. They and Pelosi did not speak out on Iraq. They and Pelosi did not speak out on torture. They and Pelosi did not speak out on spying on Americans. They and Pelosi did not defend my Constitutional right to habeas corpus. They and Pelosi did nothing on telecom immunity. Pelosi and Democrats folded on Hayden’s nomination. They claimed all this and more was because they were not in the majority. But now we know it was because Democrats are just the flip side of the Republicans.
During eight years of Republican rule I watched as Pelosi and most every Democrat did NOTHING as our Declaration of Independence, our Bill of Rights, our Constitution, and our entire free, democratic republic was raped. And the Democrats did NOTHING! They kept silent and rolled over every time we needed them to act on our behalf and save our Republic.
I don’t feel sorry one bit for Pelosi or the Democrats now. She has it coming for not defending America in the first place. She was not there for me and my rights when they were being raped. AND THAT DOES MATTER.
Bert in Ohio
"If it was just this one issue I might be inclined to cut Pelosi some slack"
ReplyDeleteI'm not willing to cut Pelosi slack. Im just saying she isnt the issue and if she and other Dems have to go down politically in order to prosecute Bush Administration officials, let it happen. But I dont think anyone should lose site of who is cupable legally and morally and its Bush, Cheney, Rice and other in the Bush Administration.
Recently Cheney said he is "convinced" the water boarding saved hundreds of thousands of lives. If that were true no one would be aruging with it but its not true -- its an out and out lie and the only way that is going to be exposed is with hearings.
I don't think the issues here are mutually exclusive. However, I think it is important that the Dems are being revealed for the hypocrites they are and after what they pulled off this past primary and election, I say, let's have it. The media has fawned all over Obama AND his cronies (of which Pelosi is one) for what feels like forever. I think it's good that they're being shown for who they truly are, at least one Dem on this one issue.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, torture or not, I think there are such larger global concerns at stake now and would love to see you, Marc, address them. A nuclear Iran would be a great place to start, including Obama's apparent willingness to let it happen, potentially sacrifice Israel in the process and, to add insult to injury, blame Israel for Iran's nuclear program.
I'm just saying....
Anna
"There has to be investigations of Bush era torture..."
ReplyDeleteMarc, I can't believe you said the above. Are you serious? We're in a tit-for-tat political era then. So, if the Dems lose in 2010 and 2012, and the Repubs come into office, will it be ok for the Repubs to go back in time and prosecute the Obama administration for its decisions? We all knew torture was going on...Abu Graib pictures and prosecutions were one big clue. Remember also that this torture was employed in the post-911 time period. We were all scared...if torture was the way to get information to protect the country, I bet most Americans did/would support it. You do know who's going to pay for all this bitterness and meanness in the country right now, don't you? Americans and the United States of America. These politics of divisiveness have to stop; the Dems have to stop ratcheting it up. It's not US against THEM (Repubs. vs. Dems), it's all of us together keeping our freedom, privacy, and capitalist system going. What's happening right now frightens me. I've been a life-long Dem and I don't like what the Dems are doing. I didn't vote for Bush and didn't like what the Republicans did while in office; but I like even less what the Dems are doing right now. Let's stop being partisan--and YOU, to my shock and dismay--sound very partisan right now. Let's start looking at the bigger picture and remember that we're all Americans.
Marc:
ReplyDeleteRead Charles Krauthammer's piece on why Pelosi's hypocrisy matters:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/05/15/the_torture_debate_continued_96496.html
".. I think there are such larger global concerns at stake now and would love to see you, Marc, address them. A nuclear Iran"
ReplyDeleteI already have something on this and will post within a few days after the meeting with Netanyahu to see if anything comes from that meeting that would change anything in the post.
"...Marc, I can't believe you said the above. Are you serious? We're in a tit-for-tat political era then."
ReplyDeleteOnly if torture is a political issue. For me it isnt. For me it goes to the heart of many things that do have political ramifications but have nothing to do with politics for me.
1.Its about illegality in the White House and Rice as recently as two weeks ago mimicking Nixon's famous line during Watergate that "if the President does it, its legal".
2. Its about the White House lying the country into war with Iraq and thinking they could use 911 to justify anything.
3. Its about violating our own laws to do something that everyone in a position to know said did not get any actionable intelligence and was unnecessary.
So these are all legal and moral issues more than political, and there is much more to be exposed including Bush's gross negligence in allowing the 911 attacks to happen when they could have been prevented and I believe the torture was an over reaction to their negligence to make sure there wasnt going to be another attack..
Marc - I look forward to your piece on the Middle East. Glad to hear you've got one in the works.
ReplyDeleteAnna
I also believe that Bush and Rumsfeld, Cheney, Addison, et. al. should be prosecuted. But the Democrats have shown they are not willing to do this. And the republicans won't At least Dems are consistent, as they have never been willing to challenege Bush or the Republicans. Dems have no spine, let alone balls. They also have no moral center. They are weak. It is the same 'ole, same 'ole. The old Chicago razzle-em-dazzle-em.
ReplyDeleteThat is why I don't mind the Pelosi show. Again, I say she deserves what she gets. For me it is one down, dozens more to go.
Bert in Ohio
While I fully agree with you Marc about the Republicans being the culprits- I have to say they were aided and abetted by the democrats all the way and it is the political posturing that is so reprehensible now-
ReplyDeleteI think anyone who stops by your blog clearly will be against torture- but again- without knowing all sides of the story- we can't make judgements with only the info that has been spoon fed to us and controlled by the Obama administration-
A truth commission should be assembled, photos released, all memos released and then decisions made.
One of the most egregious things I think Pelosi did last week was state that the CIA lied or misled her- I think the splitting of Americans is dangerous on issues like this-
And lastly- I for one will be happy to see Pelosi fail after what she did to Hillary not to mention 18 million voters last year-I may be misdirecting my anger and contempt for her- but anyway she goes down will please me
"...But the Democrats have shown they are not willing to do this. And the republicans won't At least Dems are consistent, as they have never been willing to challenege Bush or the Republicans. Dems have no spine"
ReplyDeleteIt pains me to have to agree with all of this.
"While I fully agree with you Marc about the Republicans being the culprits- I have to say they were aided and abetted by the democrats all the way and it is the political posturing that is so reprehensible now-.."
ReplyDeleteIt pains me to have to agree with all of this too. The country has a real void in leadership now but I think with enough pressure the Senate might press the issue. In the meantime if the Democrats had any brains they would use the Republican criticism of Pelosi to get them to unanimously agree to open hearings on the entire subject of Bush Administration torture and investigate everyone. Id love to see the Republicans try and back out of that one. Isnt there any Democrat with any political brains?
Sorry Marc but this time I cannot agree with you on whether or not its relevant if Pelosi knew about the waterboarding. It is extremely relevant to me when the 3rd highest elected official of this country lies like a rug. This is just not any congressperson, this is the speaker of the house. The same speaker of the house who did all she could do to make sure Hillary Clinton would not win the democratic primary. The same speaker of the house who, along with a whole bunch of friends, is responsible for the incredibly shortsighted and ridiculous bail out and rushed through policies.
ReplyDeleteYes, the republicans are playing a bit of dirty politics now, but guess what? That is ALL pelosi knows how to play. If Obama really wants to win over the moderates and the right (and I don't think he does) he would make sure Pelosi doesn't get away with this charade. I happen to really Leon Panetta and I hope he has the cajones to stand up to Nancy going forward.
"Sorry Marc but this time I cannot agree with you on whether or not its relevant if Pelosi knew about the waterboarding."
ReplyDeleteAs long as there is an investigation into Bush, Cheney and the Bush White House into illegal torture, if Pelosi gets caught up in the net, so be it. But the Republicans are trying to shift the focus from Bush to Pelosi and that's absurd. The only issue is not whether Pelosi knew but whether she lied. Harman says she wrote a letter of protest about the water boarding and it did nothing to stop it and the same would have been true for anyone. And since the briefings were classified no one could have gone public with them at the time.
If Pelosi lied in her press conference then let her get what's coming to her for that but you dont go to jail for lying at a press conference. You do go to jail for breaking the law and thats what Bush, Cheney and a bunch of White House lawyers did.
So the Republicans are basically accusing Pelosi of being guilty of what? Knowing about torture and maintaining secrecy as per the law?
ReplyDeleteAh, well. That's the rub. Only Democrats have to obey the law, especially when it comes to something the Republicans have embraced and endorsed; that being human degradation at it's lowest level - state endorsed torture. Where are our torture rooms?