tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post5265188240141610480..comments2024-03-07T02:17:34.434-08:00Comments on Tom In Paine: FLORIDA AND MICHIGAN AND HOW DEMOCRATS LOSE ELECTIONSMarc Rubinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10746456438052849715noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-48370904889852337892008-05-24T20:38:00.000-07:002008-05-24T20:38:00.000-07:00Thanks for the thoughtful article. As an Independ...Thanks for the thoughtful article. As an Independent, I'm t so worried about the Democratic Party falling apart beause, this time, it may finally lead to the makings of a third party, while the Republican Party splits off into a fourth conservative party. The monoplogy of the 2 parties is,at times, overwhelming for me. But, that said, I am amazed by the docility of the American public to let Howard Dean's greatest mistake go barely challenged. In fact, some even support it withe the spruious argument of utter chaos for future elections. As this article points out, Michigan had real reasons to go early, and Florida, if they wanted apaper trail for the electronic ballot, had to vote for the legislation also moving the primary up in the Republican controlled congress.<BR/><BR/>People thinking that a little voter chaos is the equivalent to the sky falling rather than the disenfranchisement of millions of voters in 2 states that will go Republican in the fall because of itof the overzealous nautre of the penalty for early voting, have gotten their sense of perspective skewed. I could publically organize voter fraud and walk away with a less severe penalty. Just like Sen. Obama doesn't like opposition, neither does Howard Dean.<BR/><BR/>This fiasco is the ONLY situation I can imagine that would hand John McCain an election he should never have been able to win. That people are more concerned with ipholding the severest penalties to a voter infraction thatn winning the elction back for their party is mind boggling.<BR/><BR/>This nightmare scenario would even be happening iof the DNC had finished the selection process and criteria for what states to let hold early primaries. THET WERE THE ONES thart stated this whole ball rolling. And, in the middle of it, put the remainder of the work on hold. Unbelieveable lack of foresight. Howard Dean should resign. And, if he doesn't, the Democrats should be dragging him out of his office right about now and throwing him onto the sidewalk for the most substantial, divisive, incompetent, possibly irreparable decision to disenfranchise millions of voters in the most historical election in living memory. Carl Rove couldn't have done a better job at destroying the Democratic Party.<BR/><BR/>The Republicans penalized these states for the same inferqactrion by cutting thier votes in half. Done. Everybody unites. No bikering, no committees, no allowing candidates to manipulate things to their favor on the television which only makes the party look confused, incompetent and directionless(which is what candidates do - they advocate for themselves, not for the party, people).<BR/><BR/>Maybe a true progressive party will form out of this struggle. Maybe the 2 party system will get some real competition and then the media might be forced to actually focus on what the candidates have done, not on what they promise to do.<BR/><BR/>Anyone who claims to be a uniter and not a divider, but has still as yet to meet with the most centrist and effective Republican in Washington, Sen. Susan Collins -if you actually want to get bi-partisan legislation passed - is perhaps not quite up to his own words.<BR/><BR/>I am not, this time,. voting for the lesser of 2 evils, going with the Democrat because he is not as bad as the Republican. I am also not convinced Sen. Obama has nearly enough experience not to make some very poor judgments.<BR/><BR/>I will continue to push for seating the Michigan and Florida delegates, despite Michael Moore's wish to the contrary, and insist that the DNC count his, and everyone elses's vote afterall. If this doens't happen, I will begin to work for a true democracy beyond the 2 party system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-73118761538155208562008-05-14T08:52:00.000-07:002008-05-14T08:52:00.000-07:00Is this an example of the more highly educated Oba...Is this an example of the more highly educated Obama supporter?<BR/>Obama took his name off the ballot after his internal polling showed he was getting his head handed to him by 20 pts.Then in his uniquely back door way he arranged to his name represented by a line that said "uncommitted" so he could have his cake and eat it too. When Edwards heard about it he decided to join the "uncommitted" line. and HIllary was not the only name on the ballot. And she still received 56% of vote and Obama did get his head handed him just as he knew he would. Obama and the other candidates also signed a pledge that they would "forefeit any delegates won" if they campaigned in the state. So there was a supposition that these delegates might in fact count. The fact is your candidate may not be good enough to win by counting all the votes, and it looks like he isnt the voice or will of the people.Obama himself said, "every vote must count. Voices must be heard". Of corse no one saw that he had his fingers crossed when he said it. The votes are valid. they were certified by the secretary of state and they count in terms of determining who is the will of the people.If Clinton wins the popular vote and doesnt get the nominaton the convention is going to look lke 1968 and the Democrats are finished in the fall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-82584124814281374432008-05-14T07:57:00.000-07:002008-05-14T07:57:00.000-07:00Get your facts right Tom...Michigan tried this sam...Get your facts right Tom...Michigan tried this same crap in the 2000 election primary and were penalized by the DNC then and all the Democratic candidates took their names off the ballot. Hillary was the one conniving!! The only reason the candidates didn't take their names off the Florida ballot is because Florida made them sign an affadavit that they were dropping out of being a candidate for President (not just in Florida but everywhere). Michigan and Florida broke the rules and the Obama campaign has played by the rules. Hillary's campaing flip flops depending on which way the wind blows! But having said that, I would still vote for Hillary if she got the nomination. Unlike the last verbose commentor who would "NEVER" vote for an Obama supporter. Do we need idiots like you and Tom in the Democratic Party?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-13251448702636240762008-05-12T16:14:00.000-07:002008-05-12T16:14:00.000-07:00Thank you, you said everything I want to say. I pa...Thank you, you said everything I want to say. I particularly like the paragraph about Moore. I have long known the Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites; but this time I realized the so-called liberals can be equally bad. If the DNC does not seat these two states, I will NEVER vote for any democrat who supported Obama. Period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-77239909831752038002008-05-09T15:05:00.000-07:002008-05-09T15:05:00.000-07:00If I accept all your arguments about seating Flori...If I accept all your arguments about seating Florida and Michigan, what happens in the next presidential cycle when it comes to scheduling primaries/states? <BR/><BR/>Won't everyone try to be first, and then all the elections end up spilling into the year before the election (or worse?)<BR/><BR/>Because that's the inevitable outcome of what you ask for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-45427439973113863182008-05-09T01:02:00.000-07:002008-05-09T01:02:00.000-07:00There was no legitimate primary in Michigan. There...There was no legitimate primary in Michigan. There are no legitimate votes to count. Pretending that a fake primary represents the will of the people is simply adding insult to injury.<BR/><BR/>If you don't want to disenfranchise the people of Michigan, let us vote. If you want to fine the state party, fine them enough to pay for a real primary. Then let the candidates come and campaign, and let the chips fall where they may.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I can't imagine where you get the idea that Hillary Clinton is only behind by 80 delegates. She's behind by over 150.<BR/><BR/>If any delegate elected in January is seated in Denver, I'm finished with the so-called Democratic party. Let me vote!<BR/><BR/>No delegation without representation!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-65967002112339985612008-05-08T23:23:00.000-07:002008-05-08T23:23:00.000-07:00I love it. Great article and comments. I am energi...I love it. Great article and comments. I am energized, but it's way past my bedtime. Thanks one and all. I will mull this over all night.<BR/>Perhaps we will have change--of the right kind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-50110925817476646132008-05-08T22:39:00.000-07:002008-05-08T22:39:00.000-07:00Wonderful post!! I called the DNC yesterday morni...Wonderful post!! I called the DNC yesterday morning and told them that if the Florida and Michigan voters were not allowed a truly representative vote BEFORE the nominee was determined, that I'd NEVER send them any more money. I also told them that I had all ready switched from being a life-long Dem to an Independent several weeks ago as a result of the situation with Florida and Michigan. If Democrats aren't allowed to vote and then to have their votes counted, the party isn't any better than the Republicans of 2000. I want no part in a political party who is willing to disenfranchise millions of voters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-334128673443555662008-05-08T06:14:00.000-07:002008-05-08T06:14:00.000-07:00Bravo! Beautifully reasoned post. What Obama has...Bravo! Beautifully reasoned post.<BR/><BR/> What Obama has done here fits everything in his past - he has spent most of his previous campaigns trying to toss people off the ballot so he could run unopposed, usually succeeding (with 5 off during his very first run, including Alice Palmer) and then with two U. S. Senate opponents whose marital problems Axelrod and team pressured the Chicago Tribune to reveal and they did.<BR/><BR/> And now we've seen that since before Ohio (when Obama's much quoted, quite accurate spreadsheet of expectations for each state showed him about to lose Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania), his big push and that of his many surrogates was to get Clinton OUT of the election. The man doesn't like opposition.<BR/><BR/> This is the man of Hope, Change and New Politics, but it's more about his personal Hope and Change, and then you see it makes total sense that he did all he could to prevent re-votes in Florida and Michigan, the Uniter always finding obstacles while others were willing to unite and do something productive.<BR/><BR/> I agree and have suggested in the past to DNC that they just charge the two states $1 million or whatever it takes to feel satisfaction that the state parties paid a price, including Florida who tried to get an amendment to move the primary to Feb 5 but their Republican legislature voted No.<BR/><BR/> That did not bother the great Unifier. All that mattered was how his lead might be somewhat narrower and that had to be avoided, never mind VOTERS' basic rights being affirmed. This is really a much sadder story than most will acknowledge. It goes to how easy it is to lose one's sense of basic principles in order to keep a better margin. And actually, it IS "New politics" because few would have had the audacity to do this to voters in the recent past.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05109282436243758435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-87130905330563849552008-05-08T00:24:00.000-07:002008-05-08T00:24:00.000-07:00While the babies in the party may be naive to Obam...While the babies in the party may be naive to Obama's faults, and Blacks may be willing to overlook it, (and don't even get me started with the rich, liberal Democrats - they gave us McGovern AND Dukakis), the rest of us are not so easily fooled. Obama is a shrewd politician - not infallible nor incapable of any and all wrong, including political tricks. He knew exactly what he was doing in Michigan when he removed his name, it was no sacrifice to him as polls indicated he would lose by more than 20 points. Even more devious - he conspired with other Democratic candidates (who have confirmed this) to have their names removed too, knowing he would benefit the most from this in garnishing favors with Iowans (which he then won because of this). What state would want to give up their status in picking the US president every 4 year? Can you say stupid ethanol corn subsidies that cost more than they are worth? Political favors - is something Obama knows all too well about (ie. Rezko, Wright, Ayers). Chicago is notorious for the corruption in its politics and Obama and his wife are not immune. <BR/><BR/>It really surprises me every time why the American people are so quick to throw people away who have devoted often their entire lives, as Hillary has (over 35 years) of proven, actual accomplishments to fighting for the average American. Someone who has fought for children, for veterans, for 9/11 workers, for senior citizens, and for African Americans, and on and on - with proven and actual successes. They throw all this away the second someone offers them promises of "hope and change," someone with little to no experience or know-how to bring this about. <BR/><BR/>I question the higher-ups who support Obama too - I have only come to two conclusions: 1) they think Obama is a push-over and they will be able to control him like a puppet (which they can't do with someone as tenacious as Hillary), 2) they absolutely and completely hate Hillary for often inexplicable reasons. <BR/><BR/>I just ask that you research Obama before you support him. Your wannabe-Messiah according to the Iowa Independent:<BR/>"The campaign for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, arguably fearing a poor showing in Michigan, reached out to the others with a desire of leaving New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton as the only candidate on the ballot. The hope was that such a move would provide one more political obstacle for the Clinton campaign to overcome in Iowa."<BR/><BR/>He's afraid of elections. Afraid of the people's choice. Afraid of losing, as he has in every major important Democratic state. Why is it that it's only when a woman gets in that all rules change to destroy her? That those of her own party conspire to play illegal dirty games including disenfranchising millions of voters and this is tolerated? That she can't attack him and point out their differences? That she can't show emotion, but shouldn't be overly tough? It's the impossible double standard all over again. Very disgusting Democrats and the media. I thought witch-hunts were over, guess not. Luckily, Hillary is a fighter. She knows how important this is and why it is - the people. Every time they set an impossible goal-post, she crosses it. And so they move it further. Absolutely grotesque.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-91297740231280373502008-05-07T12:34:00.000-07:002008-05-07T12:34:00.000-07:00Wow, powerful post which describes my feelings exa...Wow, powerful post which describes my feelings exactly. Today with all the pundits shrilly screaming that it's time for Hillary to bow out, they are once again forgetting the big ugly elephant in the room. They need to know that WE won't forget. We will not fall in line behind an illegitimate candidate who has stolen an election. And they will not frighten us with rancid stories about McCain and the Supreme Court and the sky falling!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-34238667872882391562008-05-07T11:49:00.000-07:002008-05-07T11:49:00.000-07:00Offering these quotes apropo for this day when it ...Offering these quotes apropo for this day when it seems the world is off its axis:<BR/>"There is no greater impotence in all the world like knowing you are right and that the wave of the world is wrong, yet the wave crashes upon you."<BR/> - Norman Mailer<BR/>"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."<BR/> - Krishnamurti<BR/>Neverthless, you have provided us with a reasoned piece on the state of our politics. I'd say "our Democratic party" but I'm choking on the words.<BR/>I will circulate this to the DNC and super d's - not an easy considering the lion's den quality of what we're up against.<BR/>The biggest obstacle - as I think I mentioned before - is getting the Brazzile's, the Dean's et al to come off their perch. Outsized egos do not slink quietly into the night...<BR/>I share your doomsday scenario for the dems, Marc. Can only hope that cooler heads like yours prevail.<BR/>One last note: I cried as I read this...<BR/>~Claudia-NYCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3820377390281203107.post-54983877081435134272008-05-07T09:40:00.000-07:002008-05-07T09:40:00.000-07:00"There is a lot more riding on seating Florida and..."There is a lot more riding on seating Florida and Michigan than just this election."<BR/><BR/>Excellent analysis of the situation. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com